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	<title>Comments on: Parts of EcmaScript 4 deemed unsound for the Web</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.itwriting.com/blog/833-ecmascript-4-deemed-unsound-for-the-web.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.itwriting.com/blog/833-ecmascript-4-deemed-unsound-for-the-web.html</link>
	<description>Tech writing blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 12:56:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Brendan Eich</title>
		<link>http://www.itwriting.com/blog/833-ecmascript-4-deemed-unsound-for-the-web.html/comment-page-1#comment-105576</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan Eich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:40:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.itwriting.com/blog/833-ecmascript-4-deemed-unsound-for-the-web.html#comment-105576</guid>
		<description>Tim, thanks very much for the update. It&#039;s hard to communicate technical conclusions from a language standards body clearly, just due to the intrinsic complexities. Then everyone who has an ax to grind wants to put a political spin on the technical facts. So every bit of clarification helps. Thanks again,

/be</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim, thanks very much for the update. It&#8217;s hard to communicate technical conclusions from a language standards body clearly, just due to the intrinsic complexities. Then everyone who has an ax to grind wants to put a political spin on the technical facts. So every bit of clarification helps. Thanks again,</p>
<p>/be</p>
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		<title>By: tim</title>
		<link>http://www.itwriting.com/blog/833-ecmascript-4-deemed-unsound-for-the-web.html/comment-page-1#comment-105537</link>
		<dc:creator>tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 23:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.itwriting.com/blog/833-ecmascript-4-deemed-unsound-for-the-web.html#comment-105537</guid>
		<description>Brendan,

First, thanks for your comments, which are very helpful and welcome.

I&#039;ve added &quot;Parts of&quot; to the headline and corrected &quot;heavyweight&quot;. I&#039;ve also added your executive summary. 

By way of explanation, I was trying to reflect what you wrote here:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
... early binding in any dynamic code loading scenario like the web requires a prioritization or reservation mechanism to avoid early versus late binding conflicts.

Plus, as some JS implementors have noted with concern, multiple open namespaces impose runtime cost unless an implementation works significantly harder.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I did not intend to misrepresent you and apologise if that was the case.

Thanks again for your comments.

Tim</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brendan,</p>
<p>First, thanks for your comments, which are very helpful and welcome.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve added &#8220;Parts of&#8221; to the headline and corrected &#8220;heavyweight&#8221;. I&#8217;ve also added your executive summary. </p>
<p>By way of explanation, I was trying to reflect what you wrote here:</p>
<blockquote><p>
&#8230; early binding in any dynamic code loading scenario like the web requires a prioritization or reservation mechanism to avoid early versus late binding conflicts.</p>
<p>Plus, as some JS implementors have noted with concern, multiple open namespaces impose runtime cost unless an implementation works significantly harder.
</p></blockquote>
<p>I did not intend to misrepresent you and apologise if that was the case.</p>
<p>Thanks again for your comments.</p>
<p>Tim</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan Eich</title>
		<link>http://www.itwriting.com/blog/833-ecmascript-4-deemed-unsound-for-the-web.html/comment-page-1#comment-105534</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan Eich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 22:03:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.itwriting.com/blog/833-ecmascript-4-deemed-unsound-for-the-web.html#comment-105534</guid>
		<description>Tim: me again, finding your post via its headline (or lede? I don&#039;t know the jaron), and getting more irate. &quot;EcmaScript 4 deemed unsound for the Web&quot; is simply not accurate. The namespace and early binding proposals were one small part of ES4. I hope you will change the headline.

/be</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim: me again, finding your post via its headline (or lede? I don&#8217;t know the jaron), and getting more irate. &#8220;EcmaScript 4 deemed unsound for the Web&#8221; is simply not accurate. The namespace and early binding proposals were one small part of ES4. I hope you will change the headline.</p>
<p>/be</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Brendan Eich</title>
		<link>http://www.itwriting.com/blog/833-ecmascript-4-deemed-unsound-for-the-web.html/comment-page-1#comment-105527</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan Eich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 20:13:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.itwriting.com/blog/833-ecmascript-4-deemed-unsound-for-the-web.html#comment-105527</guid>
		<description>Hi Tim, a few comments.

First, &quot;unsound for the web&quot; does not equal &quot;too heavyweight&quot;. Unsound means a premise from which conclusions about namespaces were reached was false. The premise was that namespaces could be used by unrelated scripts to define names in the global scope, without making conflicts of a new kind, worse and different from the conflicts you can get today between scripts trying to set and get a single global variable foo.

The problem with namespaces and early binding is technical, in other words -- not political or aesthetic -- not about &quot;weight&quot;. As my message noted, packages already were cut by the ES4 working group this past April.

This does not mean that ES4 will never happen (it&#039;s the next major Edition number), or that the language won&#039;t evolve (perhaps some would prefer that, but they&#039;re Luddites). The ES standard will evolve and Mozilla has already contributed results from its JS1.x versions to inform emerging standards such as ES3.1. That&#039;s the good news of Harmony.

The bad news, if it is bad news, is that namespaces, packages, and early binding will have to remain ActionScript extensions to ES3 and future ECMAScript standards. The ES3 spec allows extensions, and it&#039;s important to do so explicitly, to let implementations experiment, precisely in order for the language to evolve.

I view Harmony as a victory for those who want the language to evolve, rather than stay at ES3 or even shrink into a pet subset that everyone would use (if only they had the good taste of the subset&#039;s advocates).

The Web is a shortest-path evolving system. It&#039;s anywhere from silly to evil to try to stagnate JS evolution. The commitee seems agreed to this, although of course Microsoft tried to stagnate not only JS but all web standards not so long ago, and changed course only under competitive pressure.

It is definitely &quot;fighting the last battle&quot; (from 10 years ago) to fret about premature standardization. The web standards are way out of date and must catch up to track those evolutionary paths that are already well-trodden.

/be</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Tim, a few comments.</p>
<p>First, &#8220;unsound for the web&#8221; does not equal &#8220;too heavyweight&#8221;. Unsound means a premise from which conclusions about namespaces were reached was false. The premise was that namespaces could be used by unrelated scripts to define names in the global scope, without making conflicts of a new kind, worse and different from the conflicts you can get today between scripts trying to set and get a single global variable foo.</p>
<p>The problem with namespaces and early binding is technical, in other words &#8212; not political or aesthetic &#8212; not about &#8220;weight&#8221;. As my message noted, packages already were cut by the ES4 working group this past April.</p>
<p>This does not mean that ES4 will never happen (it&#8217;s the next major Edition number), or that the language won&#8217;t evolve (perhaps some would prefer that, but they&#8217;re Luddites). The ES standard will evolve and Mozilla has already contributed results from its JS1.x versions to inform emerging standards such as ES3.1. That&#8217;s the good news of Harmony.</p>
<p>The bad news, if it is bad news, is that namespaces, packages, and early binding will have to remain ActionScript extensions to ES3 and future ECMAScript standards. The ES3 spec allows extensions, and it&#8217;s important to do so explicitly, to let implementations experiment, precisely in order for the language to evolve.</p>
<p>I view Harmony as a victory for those who want the language to evolve, rather than stay at ES3 or even shrink into a pet subset that everyone would use (if only they had the good taste of the subset&#8217;s advocates).</p>
<p>The Web is a shortest-path evolving system. It&#8217;s anywhere from silly to evil to try to stagnate JS evolution. The commitee seems agreed to this, although of course Microsoft tried to stagnate not only JS but all web standards not so long ago, and changed course only under competitive pressure.</p>
<p>It is definitely &#8220;fighting the last battle&#8221; (from 10 years ago) to fret about premature standardization. The web standards are way out of date and must catch up to track those evolutionary paths that are already well-trodden.</p>
<p>/be</p>
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		<title>By: asd</title>
		<link>http://www.itwriting.com/blog/833-ecmascript-4-deemed-unsound-for-the-web.html/comment-page-1#comment-105513</link>
		<dc:creator>asd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.itwriting.com/blog/833-ecmascript-4-deemed-unsound-for-the-web.html#comment-105513</guid>
		<description>Just like CSS variables are deemed too difficult for the average Joe, idiots!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just like CSS variables are deemed too difficult for the average Joe, idiots!</p>
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